As things get busier at my recently-launched ghostwriting agency, I find that even listening to a news or sports podcast can be guilt-inducing. Why? Because I’m not supposed to be tracking current events or the latest MLB Trade Deadline updates. I'm supposed to be keeping up with my industry.
Will the podcast help me acquire clients with great stories? Will it help me create amazing jobs for the writers in my network? Will it help put money in my pocket? The world beyond writing and publishing can take care of itself (I hope). I’ve got a family to feed.
I recently scrapped the native Apple Podcast app in favor of a lesser known and, for the most part, inferior competitor called Podcast Republic. I downgraded for one simple reason: I need the ability to tag and categorize podcasts, mainly, so I can maintain a list of trade/industry-related pods that will exclude all others (news, sports, entertainment, etc.) from the menu. Podcast Republic offers this simple filtering feature and Apple Podcast does not.
I realize obsessing to this degree over podcasts tilts slightly towards the neurotic, but let's make hay out of it, shall we? In this post I'm going to share my top five regular listens, along with my candid feedbacks on each.
1. "As Told To" with Daniel Paisner
Ghostwriters start here. This is "the ghostwriting podcast." A rich and personal history of ghostwriting craft is on offer here across Paisner's series of 118 interviews. I dare suggest that each and every top-tier ghostwriter (save perhaps the elusive JR Moehringer) was a guest on this pod.
Daniel Paisner himself brings to the table his own remarkable career in ghostwriting with high-profile name-above-the-title collaborations that include Daymond John, Venus Williams, John Kasich, Montel Williams, and others. To say nothing of his face, Paisner has a voice made for radio, a smooth, blood-pressure-lowering baritone that gets guests to open up about this strange, intimate, and often invisible profession known as ghostwriting.
The Pod as a Networking Tool
Two years ago I decided to listen to As Told To in episodic order, beginning with the pod's very first installment. It was during the course of my binge that I learned that legendary ghostwriter, David Rensin, and I shared a zip code: He mentioned C Street in Ventura, California being near his home, and I thought, that's funny, it's near mine as well. Nevertheless, the retired writer wasn't easy to pin down, but after a much-delayed response to my LinkedIn outreach (accompanied by an assurance that I didn’t want him to read anything), Rensin agreed to a hang out.
We met for coffee and he shared stories career of his many high-profile interviews and book projects with the likes of Chris Rock, Tim Allen, Martin Scorsese, Jerry Seinfeld, Bob Marley, and others.
As Paisner explains in his podcast, writers like Rensin are largely part of a bygone era, a time where you could could count the number of full-time professional ghostwriters on two hands. Compare that to today where hundreds upon hundreds of ghostwriters serve clients all over the world. Paisner himself, though still working, is a product of the former era, and if you listen to his podcast you’ll gain terrific insight not just into how far the trade has come but into where it's headed as well.
2. "Author Update" w/ Thomas Umstattd Jr. and Jonathan Shuerger
Variety is the spice of life, and though I'm but a recent fan of Author Update, I think I've listened enough to know what these guys are actually about.
This is not your father's writing and publishing podcast.
In stark contrast to As Told To's classic, traditional writing knowledge repository, Author Update takes us out into the vast and flourishing publishing wilderness that exists beyond the confines of New York City. These hosts are exceptionally bright, and are definitely not of the Traditional Publishing universe. They are tech-forward, indie- and self-publishing super savants who routinely dispense great information on the craft, business, and ever-changing realities of making a living as a writer.
Testing My Assumptions
My ghostwriting agency, OneTrueLine, has built a brand centered on the inherent value of human-rendered craft and collaboration, so it’s understandable that Shuerger and Umstattd Jr’s very AI-positive approach to writing craft—and just about everything else—doesn't mix well with my views on what excellent writing is and how it's achieved.
In one segment, Umstattd Jr. had me wondering if I was in essence, a Marxist, because I believe that the hours' long agonies we writers pour into our wordsmithing are implicitly appreciated (even demanded) by our readers, that time and effort are what lead to great product. Umstattd suggests that AI has changed all of that, and that the readers who once valued human craft will soon find ample satisfaction in AI text generation at scale.
Honestly, I can’t think of any other purported thought leaders in the industry that have learned to stop worrying and love the bot as much as these two podcast hosts.
Umstattd is fond of labeling the more militant anti-AI purists members of what he calls the “Butlerian Jihad,” a reference to the fictional history of Frank Herbert’s Dune, in which humanity violently revolts against thinking machines. In his view these latter-day jihadists inhabit a fantasy of their own—one in which we can simply close our eyes and pretend AI doesn’t exist.
I did find it quite interesting though, in a recent episode when the question was put unexpectedly to co-host, Jonathan Shuerger, “Do you use AI when writing your books?” Shuerger struggled mightily. It was as if I could see his face reddening through the audio. The answer, I deduced, was a resounding yes, but with a caveat that he was still figuring out how best to talk about it.
In that same segment, Umstattd implied that writing for publication using AI-generated text was fine, so long as you were “willing to be responsible for it,” meaning, you’ve read it and concluded that the construction of prose is sufficient for what you’re aiming to accomplish in your work.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hate-listening to Author Update. These are seriously likeable dudes. They're readers. They're self-reliant. They're realists who in all likelihood worry over the future way less than I do. They've envisioned a symbiosis between author and machine in a new world where things change fast and timely acquisition of the latest "update" may make or break your next book launch. They devote an entire segment of their podcast to the "cultural zeitgeist" of the moment, which lands as a celebration of humanity's incurable capacity for whimsy and how it might present unique, if fleeting, market opportunities.
In the Author Update world of fast-paced indie- and self-publishing, where Amazon sets the tone with its eager willingness to market AI text, it would seem our Butlerian Jihad is very much a lost cause. Or is it? The hosts of our next featured podcast would surely have something to say on the matter.
3. "Print Run" with Laura Zats and Erik Hane
I've searched the world of publishing and found no finer jihadists than literary agents, Laura Zat and Erik Hane, hosts of the Print Run podcast. To give you a sense for his Butlerian credentials, Erik goes so far as to list the following on his Duotrope submissions page, point blank: “Human Authored Work Only, No AI allowed.”
Listen to Print Run and you'll soon find that Erik is a strong proponent of using AI for absolutely nothing. “We’ve got to stop feeding this thing,” he once lamented. Even limited AI-use, research purposes only, etc. is no bueno.
Writing for Our Times
Minneapolis-based, Erik And Laura have lived through the tragedies and political fallout of George Floyd, Renee Good, and Alex Pretti. Print Run is far from a political podcast but as proponents of the humanities, with a rabid inclination to protect what’s real about literature and expression, these hosts don't shy away from speaking their minds.
Co-founders of the literary agency known as Headwater Literary Management, Laura represents Romance, whereas Erik represents culturally relevant and, at times, subversive, nonfiction. They both care dearly about the state of writing and the writer in a way that’s palpable and reflective of the broader attitudes found in the traditional publishing space. Most pressing is AI’s threat to dilute the the sacred connection between human author and human reader. These hosts don't feel that such threat should be taken lightly, and I couldn’t agree more.
4. "First Person Present" from Hewes House
Sticking with the craft-forward flavor of Print Run, but switching from literary agent hosts to writer hosts, First Person Present offers a fun, sober and at times heady look at the realities of the writing life. Hosts, Josh Boardman and Dasha Sikmashvili, are MFA-trained authors and writing coaches, and the brains behind the author services consultancy known as Hewes House. In between enlightening discussions on the writing life, First Person Present fields questions from writers of all stripes on craft, routine, publishing, and all other things pertinent to the written word.
I once submitted a topic on writing routine to First Person Present and they indulged my query with a lively discussion. It's a casual, coffeeshop vibe on offer, well worth adding to your playlist.
5. "If I'm Being Honest" with Joel Pitney
As I mentioned at the top of the post, these are a few of the writing podcasts I’ve enjoyed over the years. I do want to mention one more that I recently began tracking. It’s called “If I’m Being Honest”— what a fantastic title— and it’s hosted by LaunchMyBook.com’s Joel Pitney. If I’m Being Honest has all the makings of a premiere source of commentary on the rigor and reward of self-publishing.
In Pitney’s view, the vast majority of hybrid publishers are thinly disguised self-publishers. They take a token share of your book royalties, but offer little in the way of meaningful marketing support. Even traditional publishers, according to Joel, often don’t do much better. Joel’s company, LaunchMyBook.com, was built as a straightforward, high-quality, high integrity, and affordable resource for authors in need of professional self-publishing support and straight answers on marketing resources and strategy.
Unlike the other podcasts mentioned in this post, I’ve listened only to a few episodes of If I’m Being Honest. Check back with me in a few months to see if these early signs of podcasting promise end up panning out.
Full disclosure: my ghostwriting agency, OneTrueLine LLC, has a financially incentivized business referral relationship with LaunchMyBook.com. That said, my evaluation of the If I’m Being Honest podcast is reflective of my honest opinion.
What Else?
In addition to my top-five, there are countless other podcasts that cover writing craft, publishing, and books. I came across two noteworthy listings of podcasts in my research for this article that I’ll share with you. The first comes from industry expert, Jane Friedman, who decided a few years back to poll her audience (mostly writers) on their favorite podcasts. Worth noting that Writing Excuses, The Creative Penn, and The Shit No One Tells You About Writing come up multiple times in the replies from Friedman’s respondents.
I’ll leave you with a the list of podcasts forwarded to me by Daniel Paisner, host of As Told To, #1 on this list:
A couple podcasts I listen to regularly that should be a part of this conversation:
WRITER'S BONE: The flagship podcast at the Writers Bone Podcast Network, hosted by our "AS TOLD TO" producer Daniel Ford - witty, wise, weekly conversations with best-selling, midlist and indie authors, in all genres...
THE THOUGHTFUL 'BRO: another production of the Writers Bone Podcast Network, hosted by journalist and author Marc Cecil... longform conversations with writers and thinkers...
TOTALLY BOOKED: the grandmama of all bookish podcasts, hosted by author/publisher/bookseller Zibby Owens... (note: Zibby was an "AS TOLD TO" guest)
GLAMOROUS TRASH: a deep-dive in tongue-in-cheeky celebration of the celebrity memoir, hosted by author/comedian Chelsea Devantez... (note: Chelsea was also an "AS TOLD TO" guest)
